careful folks, this one's a doozy

so this hot topic of debate (aa) won't get away, because morons continue to defend it. so here's point counterpoint. i'll put up justin's points, as he commented on an earlier post, and then throw out the counterpoint

seriously, justin. you used to be an intelligent, rational and inquisitive person. what the fuck happened to you man?

"lol

Ok, AA does not force you to be Christian. It makes you realize that you are not in control of everything that happens and wants you to admit that there is some type of power that is greater than you. That you cannot control that you feel urges to drink, and that once you start drinking, you cannot stop.

An addiction is a psychological disorder, hence disease. If you are alcoholic, your liver metabolizes alcohol differently than a "normal" person, thus it stimulates the classical conditioning response in your brain very strongly. It creates a desire for alcohol that is often as strong as a desire for food or water. Then, alcohol lowers your inhibitions so once you start, it's nearly impossible to put it down until your body can no longer tolerate it.

I go to AA because I don't want to drink anymore, it's caused me too many problems. AA is a proven theraputic method. I don't believe everything it has to offer though, the people there aren't just mindless zombies. I go to church because I like feeling spiritual: I admit that my beliefs could be wrong too.

I'm not sure if I want the girl back. I miss the good things about her though. But she's done some shit that is pretty unacceptable. But only time will tell how that will go.

And yes, I am now court ordered to go to AA meetings, lol."

first point. aa doesn't force you to be christian. the 3rd step requires you to believe in god. true, they make no mention of jesus, so you're not forced to be christian. you're forced to believe in god, though. tough shit if you don't i guess.

second point. you're never powerless. guess what, justin. you are able to make decisions in your life. you're never powerless. only if someone tells you that you are and you believe them. you know, like in an abusive relationship where the woman gets beaten and believes she deserves it. just. like. that.

3rd point. the disease point. seriously. anyone who thinks alcoholism is a disease is either an ignorant moron or an insensitive asshole. no in between. if you have ever known anyone who has an actual disease, and you call alcoholism a disease, you're a fucking disgrace and you should be ashamed of yourself. you can quit drinking. you can't quit cancer. you moron. you rude, asshole fuck of a sad excuse. sorry. my mom had breast cancer, and it pisses me off that you equate that with a fucking addiction. or, we can call all addictions diseases. crackheads are no longer crackheads. they have a disease. a psychological disorder is not a disease. that's why it's called a psychological disorder. that does not mean disease. a disease is a fucking disease, not a fucking choice. god dammit you make me so mad. go watch someone die of cancer and then see if you can call drinking a disease, you fuck of a moron. oh yea, let's back this up with facts, too. "We AA's have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking it is not a disease entity." - Bill Wilson, speaking to the national catholic clergy conference on alcoholism. straight from the mouth of aa, alcoholism is not a disease

4th point. aa is anything but proven. statistically, it helps someone stop drinking 5% of the time. which, by the by, is the same exact percentage of success that people who just decide to stop drinking without aa achieve. real fucking effective. another fun byproduct of teaching people that they have no control over their lives is the self-fulfilling prophecy. tell someone that they can't stop drinking, and they might start drinking as if they really are powerless. and since it only "works" 5% of the time, you get 95% of people who now think they have a disease and can't stop, so why not, let's get drunk. i'm powerless against it. get your head out of your ass, stop being a victim, and take control of your own life. it's pretty fucking pathetic if you're so stupid you think you have no control over your life. stop blaming it on something else and man the fuck up.

and 5th point. court ordered aa. again, since aa requires you to be religious, than it has a conflict of interest with government. sorry, but as an american, church and state are supposed to be separate. deal with it and stop trying to force religion on people. hey hey, here's some more facts (as opposed to believing that jesus christ went to church with the dinosaurs and was the only white man in the middle east).
"The New York Court of Appeals ruled in 1999 that mandating attendance at AA meetings compromises the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment right of those sentenced not to have religion dictated to them by government - because AA practices and doctrine are (in the words of the judge who wrote Griffin v. Coughlin "unequivocally religious". In that ruling it was also noted "adherence to the AA fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and religious proselytization." In "working" the 12 steps, participants become actively involved in seeking God through prayer, confessing wrongs and asking for "removal of shortcomings." The United States Supreme Court denied certiorari and let this decision stand."

what's that? more facts like that one. no problem.

"Grandberg v. Ashland County is another example concerning judicially-mandated AA attendance and the Establishment Clause. In that case the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit ruled, "Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness established beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in constitutional law, were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between religion and spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue." In Warner v. Orange County Department of Probation a man convicted of drunk driving was sentenced to AA The court found that the county was guilty of coercing the plaintiff into participating in religious exercises, an act which tends toward the establishment of a state religious faith."

court-ordered religion is illegal. simple as that. aa is religion. so court ordered aa should be illegal. guess god wins because people are morons. if you want state-sponsored religion, you have to leave the u.s. it's supposed to be a fundamental aspect of america. so if you believe in court ordered aa as anything but reprihensible, then you are un-american. woops, god wouldn't like that in his chosen country. ignorant motherfuckers.

i look forward to any attempts to try to say that facts don't matter and aa is still a good thing, even though it succeeds as often as not going to aa, but causes 5 times the relapses. "Brandsma found a correlation between AA and an increased rate of binge drinking. After several months of participating in AA, the alcoholics in AA were doing five times as much binge drinking as a control group that got no treatment at all"

stupid ass, religion pushing, dumb motherfuckers. sorry, but you are. and really, i am genuinely sorry that you fell for the scam. you used to be such an intelligent and rational young man, justin. why did you have to forsake that?